Destiny or Fate?

AC :shock:Rant

Its Fridayyyyyy evening and then I come across this post of yours.. Such a thought provoking thread... Drowning

kudos to you for bringing this up !!!

I need to think first :hide::hide: So is it destiny or Fate or something else..

Let me come back later !!

Loved all the posts, guys !!!

 

Dear AC

Good topic. Let me think about this and come back later.

 

Dear AC (and all the others who have provided excellent FBs)

Good intellectual discussion going on here and I could not resist pitching in. The words, fate, destiny, pre ordained events, determinism, fatalism are all esoteric words and seem to have different meanings depending on the context. To add to the confusion they are often used interchangeably. And what makes it complex is that many theories are diffcult to prove or disprove.

In my humble opinion these issues could be addressed if we answer the basic question- does man have a free will?

By this I mean does he have a free will to be born to the parents of his choice? Or does nature provide him a set of parents arbitrarily, without any real reason for the selection.

Do we really have any choice, control and knowledge about the very basic facts of our existence? Obviously you have no choice regarding whom you will be born to. Then do we have a choice about where life will take us, do we normally have a choice about when and how our life will end.

Neither can you control what you were in your past life and nor do you know what you will be reincarnated as in the next life .We operate in total ignorance of the reason for our existence, we are ignorant about where we came from and equally in the dark about where we are going to after we discard this body.

The concept of birth is very important. We must accept that no event occurs without a cause. Think at the macro level, when the Universe was born as per the Cosmic Big Bang theory. After that there was the formation of the Universe as we know it. Thus the cause was the big bang and the formation of the galaxies and solar system is the resultant event

But did mankind control the first cause that resulted in the big Bang. If all other events that followed (including the arrival of various species on earth) are a natural result of this phenomenon, it follows logically, that man has not controlled any single event that has resulted in his birth on this planet and logically since he has not created his past, he cannot shape his future.

Thus mankind collectively has had no say regarding his own formation and existence nor can any single individual claim that he controls his own fate. Just like the planets move in their orbits with clockwork precision, does mankind also move through life like collective puppets on a string.

If the colossal natural forces could shape up the mighty universe and design the cosmos as we see, can we assume that the very same Force cannot twist our puny lives the way it has planned?. For good reason Nature has not provided man complete and total free will or more relevantly, total control over events. If all men had such a choice could you imagine the chaos that would prevail.Probably man would try to stop the sun from moving across the skies, if that power “were given” to him.

That phrase already brings us to the important distinction, what are the powers that are given to you? It is very difficult to answer this abstract metaphysical question without resorting to an element of spirituality.

In my opinion the most important powers that have been provided to man are “ Vivekam” and “Vairagyam”-namely Intelligence and Discrimination. Use these powers and exercise your free choice wisely (not free will).Use there powers to seek spiritually enlightening answers.

With discriminative intellect, you can choose, plan and perform an action with a view to obtaining a desired result, but you have no choice in determining the result of the action. Performing the action is Free Choice and the result is Fate !

There is merit in the theory of our ancient sages regarding reincarnation in order to go through our “Karma. When a soul returns after incarnation, it is drawn by fate to the parents who can provide it with the body and environment best fitted as per a Cosmic Plan. So rather than inheriting our characteristics from our parents, we actually inherit them through our parents from ourselves -- from our own past.

So, in a nutshell, the best option would be to take life as it comes without criticizing. In the words of my Guru “Be in this world, but not of it” .If your body finds the temperature cold, use your intelligence to stop complaining and use your choice to put on some warm clothes. Don’t complain that the temp is cold-you have no control over that. With the limited free choice you have, just get on with it without moaning and groaning.

Be dispassionate- drop the arrogance that you are responsible for the results of your actions.
Why else do you think the Good Lord in the Bhagavad Gita has advised us

Karmani ave adhikars te –(you have the power to act only)
Ma phalesu kadachana -(you do not have the power to influence the result)
Ma karmaphal hetur bhoo-(therefore you must act without the anticipation of the result)
Ma sangostu akramani -(without succumbing to inaction)

Magnificent philosophy and the Word of the Lord is good enough for me!

Regards.

 

Hello, Dolorcosta

Thanks for the lengthy discussion. You've given me some points to ponder. However, I don't believe in reincarnation or karma, so that particular framework doesn't work for me when trying to puzzle out the mysteries of fate and destiny. This means that I believe that who we are born to and when we are born are completely random events (not the result of actions in past lives). Of course, in some countries, especially like India, the circumstances of one's birth tend to have more of an influence in the course of one's life (by this I mean, for example, if you are not born into privilege, it is so much harder to attain the traditional measures of success there). So maybe I'd have a different opinion if I'd been born there.

I found your observations about being dispassionate particularly interesting, since this seems to go against everything I believe in. Is it really practical for an ordinary human being to aspire to this state? It seems to me that the very fact of being alive would involve actively engaging with the world in every way. I can see how the dispassionate life might work for one who chooses that particular lifestyle (e.g. a priest or a nun, who gives up all worldly preoccupations) but I can't imagine myself being in this world but not of it!

Possibly, I'm not understanding much of what you say, but I've always had a rather simple view of life and I tend to think religions complicate things. Or maybe the people in charge of religions do the complicating - in and of themselves, I love reading religious texts or sitting in religious edifices. It's when religious "leaders" start trying to tell me what to do because God said so that I get cold feet and want to run away!

The other thing that's always plagued me about almost all religions (and I sincerely mean no disrespect to any person or religion by saying this) is the concept of living a good life, or else you will be punished. In other words, do the right thing (follow the Ten Commandments, or whatever the religious scriptures in that particular religion are) and you'll be eternally rewarded. In Christianity, you'll go to Heaven, in Hinduism, you'll be released from the cycle of rebirth, etc. This may be why a lot of people, when confronted by hardship, feel they are being punished (fate or destiny based on past or present sins) and suffer enormous guilt.

This has always seemed, to me, to be a rather convenient method of "crowd control", of frightening people into doing what is good and orderly. While I'm all for being good and living a spotless life, shouldn't that be something that comes from inside me? I should do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing, not because I know there's going to be a reward at the end of it all (or some kind of terrible punishment if I'm bad). We should be governed by self-discipline, independent of whether someone is watching and keeping score or not.

As for the "moaning and groaning" when circumstances are unfavourable, while I think it is useful advice, I wonder whether it is advice that can be taken in all contexts. To illustrate, what about the many peoples all over the world who have been oppressed and exploited? Sometimes it is the moaners and groaners who are responsible for revolutions. In South Africa, for example, people like Nelson Mandela were forced to accept apartheid until they rose up and wilfully changed the course of history (with much pain and suffering).

While we all condemn atrocities like apartheid now, you'll never hear from the millions of people all over the world who actually didn't have a problem with it then. There had to have been people who supported it, otherwise things like apartheid and the atrocities of Nazi Germany would never have happened. So, it would have taken great courage and going against the grain (being in and of his world and then turning his whole world upside down!) for people like Mandela to initiate sweeping reforms. No dispassion there!

I hope no one reading this takes it as an attack on any particular faith or way of religious thinking. These are my personal views and I express them here as such. Hopefully, you will not see them as an imposition on your particular way of thinking. I have to say, I don't often speak so freely about this particular aspect of my life, because I don't wish to offend anyone. I have the greatest respect for religion and religious people. Thanks AC, for providing a forum where we can discuss these sensitive issues, safe in the knowledge that other ILites will accept the discussion in the spirit it was intended - as a platform for healthy debate.

Ansuya

 

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Dear Ansuya

Thanks a lot for taking the time and having the patience to post such an excellent reply. If the purpose of some of these threads is to encourage pondering, then we can consider that objective as being successfully met. It is indeed refreshing to be able to exchange thoughts with such an able writer like you.

Fate and destiny are part of abstract metaphysics and as we such we mere mortals do not have all the answers. We only seek philosophies that appear most sensible to us. Those who are lucky enough, find themselves a good Guru who can possibly provide some guidance and a few answers. You are right when you say that even the place and circumstances where you are born affect your way of life. But why is one born at a particular time and place in a specific country to specific parents-maybe Fate decides that! And we are back to square one…

I have had the good fortune to travel to a few countries both in <st1lace>Europe ,Mediterranean and the </st1lace><st1lace>Far East</st1lace> and interact with the local people and have observed that the average population there does not seem to possess a keen spirit of spiritual enquiry. To that extent, being born in <st1:country-region><st1lace>India</st1lace></st1:country-region> is a boon, in my opinion, since this society has always been secular and pluralistic from ancient days. The land that believed in the creed “Atithi Devo Bhava” has welcomed all travelers with hospitality, although as subsequent events proved, some of the visitors have taken unfair advantage in propagating their own faiths through the use of swords, cannons and in some case by distributing glass beads and trinkets to the innocent local inhabitants. Being here, we acknowledge that different faiths and beliefs exist, which is a far cry from the various so call developed nations who have virtually no knowledge about any belief system outside theirs.

Regarding the subject of being dispassionate – we have observed the typical classification of humans into two categories. The Adolph Hitlers and the Mahatmas/Mandelas, and presumably the rest of humanity falls somewhere in between the two extremes. If you observe what sets these two categories apart is the lack of compassion in the former and the presence of empathy in the latter. Surely the Evil Ones in the world would not have perpetrated such atrocities if they had subscribed to the philosophies that motivated the good men on this earth. In that case there would have been no atrocities in the first place for the “moaners and groaners” to revolt against!

The urge to be dispassionate was well observed by foreigners as early in the 1st century as per the below comment of an ancient Greek traveller :
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“In <st1:country-region><st1lace>India</st1lace></st1:country-region> I found a race of mortals living upon the Earth but not adhering to it. Inhabiting cities, but not being fixed to them, possessing everything but possessed by nothing.”
-Apollonius Tyanaeus, Greek Thinker and Traveller 1st Century AD

By all means action, is to be encouraged, but do not take credit for the results, for they are already pre-ordained.The message here is that do not be egoistic, self-centred and assume that you are responsible for all the results that you see around you.Do your best and leave the rest to God. Do not get too elated when things go your way, do not succumb to depression and despondency when events backfire. Take it unequivocally in your stride, it was meant to be thus.

History has resoundingly proved that the Nazis and the Apartheid rulers are the aberrations of society, blots on humanity and hence the international community has condemned and eliminated them. The failure of their ideology is ample evidence that Humanity as a collective whole is capable of accepting what is good and rejecting what is unsuitable.

Regarding your comments on religion. I wish to clarify that I do not consider myself a religious person, but prefer to think that that I am spiritually inclined. Spiritualism does not fall under the domain of any specific religion but is actually culled from the wisdom of several beliefs and faith systems. I do not want to repeat my views on this subject, in case you want to know more about my beliefs you may check my earlier post whose link is given below:

http://www.indusladies.com/forums/snippets-of-life/32781-mr-black-coat-why-don.html#post385137

Your comment about self-discipline is well taken. But in the formative years, when the mind is more immature, a carrot and stick policy is adopted to steer the mind in the right direction. However as one grows more mature, this policy outlives its utility and one steers oneself by use of self –introspection, reflection, sadhana and self-discipline and the external pressures of fear and reward can be slowly discarded. I admit I have not reached that stage yet, but I’m trying, Im trying…

I would like to answer your first point last, regarding belief in Karma and reincarnation. Indeed a difficult proposition to either prove or disprove either way. To each his own way of thinking, and I will relate a brief anecdote that drives home this point:

Once a European was watching a Sadhu taking a dip in the <st1lace><st1lacename>Ganga</st1lacename> <st1lacetype>River</st1lacetype></st1lace>. When asked why he was doing so, the Sadhu replied that he was washing off his sins in the river.
The European said”That’s just a silly superstition, I don’t believe that dipping into the river washes off your sins “
The Sadhu replied “You stick to your superstition that the river will not absolve me from my sins and I will stick to my superstition that my sins are being washed off”

Once again thanks Ansuya for your valuable inputs and looking forward to more contributions from you and the other members to make the discussions lively and interesting.

Warm Regards.

 

dear AC
an excellent piece:thumbsup

mario puzo in godfather writes(through don corleone the character of godfather)
"everyone has but one destiny and all the roads lead to it"
i think it is same as narayan murthy said.

in geeta lord krishna says
'karm karo aur phal ki iccha chhod do"
(do your work, without thinking of the results )

so the debate can just go on and onnnnnnnnnnnn
the reality being that our life is a mix and match of many experiences, we can not live by rules, as though we are made of matter, our heart and mind are what keeps us away from generalizations.
i prefer to include all possiblities in my life, and never say "this is not right" as what may be right for one, can prove wrong for the next person.

dear dolorcosta and anusuya
your discussion is beautiful

 

Dolorcosta, I do enjoy the rational and orderly way in which you make your points. I am particularly happy about how you and I seem to disagree so fundamentally, yet we're both quite keen to keep on talking about this. It's good when people can disagree about the method (religion, spirituality, secular humanism etc.) that guides one's life yet still realise it's really the same outcome we all want (peace, contentment, satisfaction in knowing we have made the world a better place for us being in it, etc.).

I have to agree with you about India's tolerance for a multiplicity of religious beliefs. When I first visited India (I was 21 years old), I was struck by how much religion permeated every day life, and how tolerant people were of differences in religious beliefs. It is an admirable trait, but at the same time, it is noteworthy that some of the most bitter losses of life in India and neighbouring countries were, and continue to be, a result of religious skirmishes.

Maybe this is another reason why I am distrustful of religous zealots - so much bloodshed in the history of humans can be attributed to each group of people believing that God is exclusively on their side. In fact, even here in the US, every time I hear the president or a politician say, "God bless America", it makes me wince, because I find it hard to believe that a just and generous God would ever make a distinction in favour of any particular country or people, especially when that country or people is engaged in some kind of conflict with someone else. Surely God (by virtue of being God) cannot show any favour of this sort.

A possible solution to the limitations of religious belief may be to search for spiritual enlightenment, as opposed to any one specific religion's teaching, as you say you have done yourself. I agree with what you say about not taking either the good or the bad too much to heart, but I think that I've arrived at this conclusion not because I think it was all meant to be according to some great cosmic plan, but rather because I think it's all utterly random and completely unconnected. However, I'm not a complete nihilist, as I'd like to believe there's some magic left in the world!

As for self-discipline, I do wonder if the carrot and stick method is ever necessary, even in the formative years. Perhaps this method is thought to be effective only because we've all been trained in this way. I have an aunt that I adore, who even 20 years ago used to think out of the box, and applied novel methods to childraising. I remember my other relatives (who didn't like this aunt very much - pure jealousy, I think!) being scandalised because this aunt of mine taught her toddler son self-discipline by giving him a bag of sweets. The bag was his to keep, but he was only allowed 2 sweets a day (or whatever it was). So, all the relatives thought she was being horribly cruel and torturing the poor boy. In the meantime, she was teaching him a valuable lesson about self-discipline.

I'm not sure how she managed to get him to comply exactly (she was a strict disciplinarian but she did not hit her children, so it wasn't through brute force) as I was only a child myself. Clearly, to the other relatives, the idea of self-discipline in a child that young was absurd. Now, that aunt's two sons are some of the finest young men I've ever met (and I used to be a school teacher, so I apply very high standards when appraising youth!). They're polite, responsible, socially well-adjusted and most importantly, they're happy with themselves and loving to family and friends. My aunt's methods worked. If we don't condition people from birth to respond to the carrot and stick method, perhaps it will never be necessary.

You make a very good point about how we view each other's beliefs with some skepticism (your parable about the Sadhu and the European at the Ganga). This is healthy, I think, because the dominance of any one particular view tends to limit human achievement and potential. What I'm looking forward to in the next few decades is more tolerance of people who don't believe in any particular religion or spirituality. A lot of people automatically assume I question the existence of God and distrust organised religion because that makes it easier for me to live a debauched life of endless sin and unrestrained revelry. Believe me, my life is not that exciting!

Instead, I would say it is quite challenging to live without the guidance of religious boundaries because I am answerable only to myself (and there's no way you can ever escape yourself). This means my conscience guides me. I don't fear divine retribution - what I fear is not being able to sleep at night if I do something which I know is wrong, or waking up in the morning with a sinking feeling because I have gone against my own personal moral code. It is this internal moral compass that is most undeniable in terms of guidance and values.

Hello, Muzna... I must say, you have my admiration for managing to wade through these long and convoluted posts of mine. I'm glad you're enjoying it!

Thanks for the encouragement, AC. I think you and Dolorcosta have really set the tone for the mature and balanced way in which this thread is developing. It is an absolute pleasure to be a part of the discussion.

Ansuya