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What is the opposite of "Respect"?

Discussion in 'Snippets of Life (Non-Fiction)' started by satchitananda, May 17, 2015.

  1. satchitananda

    satchitananda IL Hall of Fame

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    How would you address your father or your grandfather or mother ..... with a "du" or a "Sie" (Hindi equivalent of 'tum' or 'aap')? This is a question posed to my students when teaching them about the use of the "du" or "Sie" in German in different contexts.

    Mother : "du", "Sie" ..... uncertain looks. "I refer to my mother as "ningal" (Malayalam). I'd get slapped if I said "nee" replies one person. Others say they would say "du".

    Father? I ask. "Sie" comes the prompt reply and this time the answer is unanimous.

    Grandparents? "Sie". Where is the doubt?

    "Why" I ask. "Respect" comes the reply. "Don't you respect your mother?" There is some muttering around and I can sense some discomfort here.

    I try to explain again and again (for the 51st time perhaps) that "du" or "Sie" has nothing to do with respect or disrespect. Would you be 'disrespecting' a child, or someone younger, just because you referred to them as "du"? Somehow the concept of "formal" vs "informal" as against "respect" vs "disrespect" seems so hard to explain ..... or rather for them to fathom. Is it really so hard?

    Why is it so hard to understand the concepts of "closeness" in relationships notwithstanding gender or age differences? Come to think of it, I have always wondered why I was brought up to refer to my mom as "nee" and dad as "neengal". Both my parents referred to both their own parents as "neengal". Did that mean I was taught to "disrespect" my own mother? In school the explanation given was that it is a question of being closer to the mother than the father. The father is supposed to be a distant figure. That, however, was far from the case in our household.

    "Girls these days! They have no respect for their husbands. They refer to them as nee, avan-ivan". That was my gmil passing not so subtle hints to me (to which I was totally deaf). "Would you call a rickshaw driver 'nee'?" she asked. "No, I wouldn't. But then the rickshaw driver is not my husband!" How could I get her to understand this? (Of course, now the question does not arise - she is probably already reborn somewhere and should I ever come across her, a modern day missy, maybe I might shake my head sadly and comment about young girls of today!) :p

    A husband should be referred to in the plural. A son-in-law should be referred to the same (gmil's homily to me with a sidey about 'Kerala' side people who referred to their sn-i-laws in the singular). However, she did not say much about a lot of young people from her own part of the world or sub-culture who refer to their dads as "nee". So now, is that disrespect towards the father?

    Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to be critical about our culture (with all the inherent differences). All I am doing is thinking out aloud about these two concepts - formal/informal vs respect/disrespect and how they are applied in different parts of the world.
     
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  2. yellowmango

    yellowmango IL Hall of Fame

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    Parents and elders were always ...Aap.
    Husband is ....Tum
    Husband calls me...Tu
    Daughters call us Aap......although a few times when the younger ones is very lovey dovey and comes and hugs ,she uses 'tum' for me and I find it very endearing for that time.Rest of the times aap seems more appropriate.

    I think it is community based too......People in Haryana or even Maharashtra seem to use 'Tu' very often and it seems to be an acceptable form of address.In my community...anything short of AAp would be considers totally unacceptable for elders.

    My parents address me as 'tu'...but with inlaws it varies.Very rarely my mil has address me as 'tum'(very rare moments when we have been close )...mostly it is 'AAp'......probably indicative of the formal relationship we share.

    Nice topic Satchi!!!
     
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  3. CrayoNess

    CrayoNess Platinum IL'ite

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    Interesting topic! German is known for the formal language. The "sie" has almost disappeared in Scandinavia but in the past (my mothers generation) "sie" was widely in use. I think it was not inside the family (but may be wrong) but to adress people elder/in higher rank than you.

    I have done some desperate attempts to learn hindi but due to time constraints (and the challenge with a different script) failed in that. I noticed in the office that managers are adressed "sir". How are female managers adressed?
     
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  4. Srama

    Srama Finest Post Winner

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    All words Satchi, all words :biggrin2: Personally, I have been taught to speak to others and all elders using the respectful terms and I have been okay with it. I do see what you say here and many a time, all of us ie., cousins in our family actually call our grandma in singular.....but she knows at 94 and we know that there is a lot of love and respect in those words. Now that you mention, it is all her sons and DILs that use 'the words' to address. In my Dhs house even though I am addressed in singular terms, it is always followed by the word 'amma'!!!

    Now you are making me think too much!!
     
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  5. armummy

    armummy Platinum IL'ite

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    I remember everyone in my family addressed everybody as 'tum' equivalent in my language.

    Is have seen many others using 'Aap' version for parents and husband and inlaws. Depends on the region they come from.

    according to me, you start out addressing people as 'Aap' and move to 'tum' as you get familiar and build relationship and feel closer. Any new person or acquaintance gets 'aap' . They are reduced(pun) to ' tum' and then to 'tu' when they become friends and then close friends.
     
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  6. satchitananda

    satchitananda IL Hall of Fame

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    That was a very interesting FB, YM. Yes, customs are very different. It is a different matter that I find it hard to understand how within the same relationship one person addresses the other as aap while the other responds with a tu/tum. It is confusing either way one looks at it. If it is a matter of respect, then is it not mutual? If it is a question of formality, isn't that too mutual?

    What I am trying to say is so beautifully exemplified in your last statement - your mil mostly calling you "aap" indicative of the formality in the relationship. There is no question of respect or disrespect here. For that matter in many Northern regions, (and I really love this custom - it sounds so good) even children are addressed as "aap".
     
  7. satchitananda

    satchitananda IL Hall of Fame

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    Hey Sabitha! I am not really even trying to bring in any question of "why" in the matter of using the plural or singular forms of address. My only question is: is it indicative of 'respect' or of 'formality'? Does formality indicate respect or vice versa? Also, whatever form is used, does it not have to be reciprocal to make logical sense either way?
     
  8. satchitananda

    satchitananda IL Hall of Fame

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    You know what armummy, that bit reminded of that beautiful ghazal "rafta rafta woh meri hasti ka samaan ho gaye". The last part of the ghazal :


    "Pyaar jab had se badha, saare takkaloof mit gaye,
    Aap se phir tum hue, phir tu ka unva ho gaye"

    "Tu ka unva" = the honour of being addressed as "tu". Love that.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S7ExLJjxSo

    (Here's the translation for anyone who wants to know: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130209041632AAL5aj7)
     
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  9. satchitananda

    satchitananda IL Hall of Fame

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    True CrayoNess, even in Germany the rules of formality have changed from the times when I was first taught the du-Sie conventions. The trend is changing gradually towards informality.

    Here in India, female managers or bosses are addressed as Madam.
     
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  10. yellowmango

    yellowmango IL Hall of Fame

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    Satchi...my brother and I are just about a year apart and he would refuse to address me as didi or aap.....we would often fight about this with lot of tongue showing.So both of us used 'tu'.My younger sister uses 'aap' for both of us....and we address her as 'tu'.

    My husband and his brother are also about the same age difference ...but bil calls him bhaiya and aap....while husband uses his pet name and 'tu'.

    My daughters are 2 years apart....the younger one calls the elder didi but they use 'tu ' for each other.I once told them you should use 'tum' but they said...nooooo let us be 'tu tu' only......so 'tu' it is.

    Sometimes people concerned just choose what they want even without cultural or parental inputs....specially siblings.

    One interesting bit is that while my dad calls my husband 'aap' ...my mother calls him 'tum'....which is surprising because both my husband and mom are a bit scared of each other.My husband refers to them as 'Aap'.

    My mom refers to her other son in law also as 'tum' ...but they are closer to each other.....while dad refers to him too as 'aap'.
     
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