Karmic Effects ???

skchivukula · Apr 29, 2010

When Atman is said to be a pure form and is devoid of attachments, then how the karmic effects get attached themselves to the Atman ??

For e.g. a person leading a sinful life, despite of his sins if he enjoys a happy / prosperous life, its said that he/she is enjoying the fruits of his / her prev. birth.

On the contrary, a person leading a virtuous life, if has a miserable life, people say that it is because of karmic effects of his / her previous birth.

When Atman is a pure form then how the karmic effects are attached to it.

Why should the present physical body suffer for the deeds of another physical body (i.e. the body in his / her previous birth) - is it only because of the same Atman in both the bodies ??

A person neither knows his / her past birth nor the future rebirth. Then why the person should suffer for the deeds of his / her prev. birth.

Finally is it the Atman or the Sasira - the physical body that does karma / deeds ??

sabarimathi · Apr 29, 2010

skchivukula,

atman is pure, unatached and is spoken of as the Lord Himself , with all the qualities and attributes , the explanatin of which may be found in The Gita.. It is the ego that is attached to the body veiling the atman and leads to karma thru' the actions done.

To give u an easier explanation, analyse y'rself as to what happens during sleep and wakefulness. Their is but 1 difference. In sleep, atma is covered by ignorance and the ego [ I ] is absent. During wakefulness, the ego arises with the rise of the I thought and assumes the body to be the soul. This ego has to be get rid of for the atman to shine all by itself. That is the state attained by the jnanis . It is called mukti / liberation. To attain this state u may assume one of the pathways :

1. karmayoga
2. jnanayoga [ sankhyayoga ]
3. bhaktiyoga
4.rajayoga

All efforts are only to get rid of the I thought [ego ]. Atman shines always, only the ego needs to be cleared off.

Courtesy : Ramana Gita, " talks ", both by Ramana Maharishi.

sam9san · Apr 29, 2010

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 96%; mso-cellspacing: 0in; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in" class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="96%"><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=top>The origin of each individual Soul is “Amarlok” which indeed is the true abode of One Supreme God (Param Purush – Sahib). Every single element and article which is present in the whole universal creation comes out of HIM only.
<TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 1"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=top>
<TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 2"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=top>Sant Samrat Satguru Kabir Sahib for the first time revealed all the secrets about this unknown path to Immortality in His ideology, which indeed is the true origin of a Soul. ‘Amar' means Immortal and ‘Lok’ means Abode. The abode of a Soul (our own true-self) is Immortal and its existence is beyond the creation of universe i.e. beyond all the 5 perishable elements - Earth, Water, Fire, Air & Sky as well as beyond the knowledge of Vedas, Quran and all the religious scriptures/manuscripts that are available to mankind.
<TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 3"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=top>
<TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 4"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=top>No Secondary God exists over there i.e. Kaal Niranjan (Every single being worships Him by considering Him as Supreme God and addressed Him with the names - God, Heavenly Father, Bhagwaan, Ishwar, Rabb, Khuda, Allah, Nirakaar Paramatma), Aadhya Shakti, Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh, Ganesh, Ram, Krishna, Sai, Jesus, Buddha, Mahavir, Gods-Goddesses, Peer, Paegambar, Yogeshvars etc.
<TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 5"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=top>
<TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 6"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-TOP: 0in"><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 7; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=top>None of the 5 Words – Jyoti Niranjan, Onkaar, Sohang, Satt, R-Rankaar from which 5 individual elements Fire, Water, Air, Earth & Sky came into existence does not exists in Amarlok. The world where there is no dissolution, destruction, karmas, punishment, fear, grief, pain, sorrow, birth, death, caste, colour, creed, religion, rituals, physical body, ethereal body, time, mass, length. No Anhad Dhuns (Anhad Naad / Naad Brahm), Jyoti, Prakash, Sun, Moon, Planets, Stars etc exists in ‘Amarlok’. It is beyond the limits of Mind (Mann) and Body (Maya).

<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; mso-cellspacing: 0in; mso-yfti-tbllook: 1184; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 0in" class=MsoNormalTable border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%"><TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; mso-yfti-firstrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 6pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-TOP: 3.75pt">
AMARLOK HANSON KA DERA
PARAMPURUSH JAHAN KAREIN BASERA
KABIR
<TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 1; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes"><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #d4d0c8; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 3.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 6pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; BORDER-RIGHT: #d4d0c8; PADDING-TOP: 3.75pt">The abode of Hansa (Soul) is Amarlok where Param Purush (Supreme God) Himself resides.

From "Sahib-bandagi"

SAIRAM

Vrindavipul · Apr 29, 2010

Hi'

Great discourse. This subject is worth discussing but is too deep that not easy to understand. We understand the language or the example given . But as soon as the discussion closes we all set to our material world. It's not easy to bring these teachings in ones life. But we should keep on trying.
But I am confused at one place
I have seen some people, these people are integral part of my life, don't bother about these in depth riddles of life but they don't do any bad for others and live a simple life and look more calm, satisfied and happy. These people are more close to their inner self. Is ignorance good to some extent?

ShilpaMa · Apr 29, 2010

I'll provide my inputs based on a few books I read & really dont want to offend anyone.

Its a single soul which may take multiple births, and in each birth the karma the soul does can be categorised as good (credits) & bad (Debits).
there's a single bank balance for a soul and all good deeds are a credit to this account which gives it pleasures of life, whilst the bad/ hurtful deeds reduce the bank balance, which is why certain non happy events occur in life.
The balance sheet is created at the time of life & death as we do at financial year & a new life starts with the credit/ debits of previous life.

There was a nice book which showed the entry and exit of a soul in the form of a FLOW CHART, which tells that a soul goes into loop of re-births, entering "PUT" after the body is reduced to ashes and these births are an opportunity to earn brownies and increase the bank balance with good deeds. When a threshold is reached for this balance the soul attains Moksha.

Vrindavipul · Apr 29, 2010

ShilpaMa

Can you give name of that book ? I would like to read the book.

Vrinda

skchivukula · Apr 29, 2010

My sincere thanks to all friends for their interesting responses in this discussion.

skchivukula · Apr 29, 2010

ShilpaMa said: ↑

I'll provide my inputs based on a few books I read & really dont want to offend anyone.
Its a single soul which may take multiple births, and in each birth the karma the soul does can be categorised as good (credits) & bad (Debits).
there's a single bank balance for a soul and all good deeds are a credit to this account which gives it pleasures of life, whilst the bad/ hurtful deeds reduce the bank balance, which is why certain non happy events occur in life.
The balance sheet is created at the time of life & death as we do at financial year & a new life starts with the credit/ debits of previous life.
Click to expand...

Hi ShilpaMa,
My since thanks to you for explaining so well and making it more interesting.

Still I have the following doubts

If it is the single soul that is taking mutliple births -then are there innumerable souls or isn't Atman a part of Paramatma / the Ultimate Soul ??

When Atma is considered as a pure form then how the karmas / deeds are attached to it ??

Is it the Atman or the physical body that is involved in doing karma / deeds ?

When Atman becomes one with the Paramatma after leaving the physical body, then how can it accumulate good or bad deeds of the physical body that it has left.

For e.g. sea water taken in different containers takes the shape of the container and once it is poured out it flows back to the sea and mixes with it, then we cannot differentiate which particular part of water was taken in a particular container.

In the same way when Atman leaves the body and becomes one with the Paramatma then how can it be differentiated as which part of the Paramatma was in a particular body. And then how can it accumulate the deeds / karma of the that particular physical body ??

sam9san · Apr 29, 2010

1)You have to know the creator and understand the level and extent of creation, further the intention and purpose of creation. In this contest one should learn the purpose of human life (human life is not for khana, peena, sonna, marna ).
For this one should have inclination to search for the answer from the scriptures and approach living sadguru
2)An awareness about the satlok(sathyalok) which is beyond the three world of human existence(patal,bhulok & heaven)and the type of salvation needed must be acquired.
3)At the current position where the worldly religions stands, none of them can guide humans correctly.For thousands of years they brought only confusion and conflicts because the religious identity are created by egoistic groups and not practised on the basis of love.
4)I have found reading of kabir's "Anuraga Sagar" (Avilable on Net) very useful. Further one should read Sant Math publication, to have complete clarity on human life and goal. Sants in India went through all the troubles to find answer to human problems.
SAMSAN

ShilpaMa · Apr 30, 2010

Vrinda, few were from library which I cant recall, the one that I have at home is Myth = Mythology (Dr. Devdutt Pattanaik).

Skc, my pleasure that I could contribute here positively. Let my try on further queries:
- Atma rolls up to paramatma only at the time of MOKSHA when it merges into it (I hope this is an answer to a bigger picture).
Its really difficult to attain MOKSHA...

- I have concepts of following 4 Loks - Swarga, Pitra, mrityu, pataal. Since its a lok it has to have many spirits/ bodies and paramatma is above all these.... hence its a mutiple occurance of the param atma (which probably is the purest form).
(I shall read it as main process has spwaned many child processes)

- Its the physical body thats involved in final karmas & their ability to make decision is marked by their bank balance (deeds)... which they can further use to increase/ decrease the balance..
- there are zillions of species on this earth & the first body that an atma takes is not of human... maybe a single cell existance, it earns its points to finally reach the level of decision maker and executer.

The journey starts from mrityu lok, and at each body turning into ashes it goes to pitra lok for rebirth to next higher specie, v bad karma/ untimely demise it goes to pataal, v gud exceptional performance probably to Swarga lok.

I still dont have any concept of PURE or UNPURE, when a child is born its the purest body to look at yet a 40 day waiting period to purify it. I look at these spiritual concepts in terms of hierarchy and karmas. Hence probably I need a new insight in that area.