Do you abide by the feminist views?

HI ansh,SS,Malyatha,

Your discussion about the equality in gender is very Interesting..

I think this kind of thinking should be changed in both male and female so that they can respect the opposite ones..

Few things are cannot be changed as child births and the Physical strength(Biological Factors) as they are according to nature..

Hugs,
dg..

 

Ansh,

I have been thinking about your post. To be honest, I do not wish to start this discussion in the General Discussions forums because this is YOUR topic and I feel it would be better if you began a discussion there, as you obviously feel very strongly about female empowerment.

In response to your previous posts: I would first like to ask you what you mean by 'empowerment'? I get your OP where you say that some women put down men as a way of making themselves feel better. This tactic is self-defeating and only perpetuates bias and unhappiness. For two people to work together, there needs to be mutual give-and-take. For two genders to work together, there also needs to be mutual respect, understanding and give-and-taking. Shooting someone else down to raise ourselves up is a very short-term oriented thinking that will only backfire in due course.

That said, let me address some of the issues you raised about the equality (or lack thereof) of women in the workplace.

(1) You said that "the reproductive age of female coincides with the productive age,as a result of which they lag behind in the career as they are the ones who have bear a child and have to be primary care-giver."

I beg leave to disagree. While it is true that women are the ones who biologically bring a child into the world, there is NOTHING that says that they *have* to be the primary care-giver. A father is equally capable of being the primary care-giver to his offspring.

You further said: "The way you have written its a personal choice, I feel its bit unfair to say that, every woman wants a fair share of responsibilty of the male counterpart in child care but the social conditioning is such that care-giving is considered to be the domain of the woman and their up-bringing is such that they take-up the role easily, men on other hand as boys are most of the time not taught to lend a helping hand to the mother , if they were I am sure they would be equally capable to lending a helping hand when they become husbands or fathers".

If you want something, you need to go after it and get it done. So what if your husband was not raised to help in domestic chores? As a married father, he needs to pitch in and help his wife, esp. if she is employed outside the home, to shoulder the cares of child-rearing. If a wife wants her husband to play an equal role in the domestic sphere, she should make this fact clear to him. Excuses along the lines of "But that's not how he was raised" just don't fly.

In fact, at the risk of appearing politically incorrect, let me share what my observations have been so far. I think many women want to be Super-Mom. They want to show the world that they can manage careers, housework, child rearing etc etc etc with minimum help from their men. If a woman needs help with child rearing, she should ask. No REASONABLE man will refuse to help with child care. However, centuries of brainwashing and patriarchy has convinced women that since they give birth, they *have* to raise the child almost exclusively. This, they willingly do, but moan and complain that they get NO help from their spouses. Whose fault is this? Ask and ye shall receive. New mothers should ASK their husbands for help. Most husbands are not mind-readers. There is no point in voluntarily taking on responsibility and then complaining that it is unfair to one. Yes, I get that it is culturally unacceptable for men to provide care for their kids on par with their wives, but who knows or cares what happens behind closed doors? If a man helps his wife with the kids in the confines of his own home, who is to know and, furthermore, who is to question his decision?

(2) "as you have said, they was a division of labour in earlier time with woman playing a central role at home and man outside home, the real problem started when money came in picture and the work of the woman came to be considered as trivial. With that, the balance titled in favour of man and he was considered to stronger and powerful than woman."

Here's the thing. Contrary to what you state, this is not a recent development. Men have always been the providers and the controllers of a family's finances - even in Vedic India - and women have always been the homebodies. So, the question of women's work being regarded as 'trivial' once money entered the equation is a moot one. Vedic women, who were also pretty much confined to the 'sphere of domesticity' had much more power, and more freedom, than present-day women do, even though Vedic women had no more charge of their family's finances than their present day counterparts do. How can we explain this anomaly?

(3) Regarding your statement about women's promotion and advancement in the workforce: In this day and age, most promotions are based on merit, not on 'seniority' or 'years in service'. So a break for a few months due to childbirth should not adversely affect a woman's career as much as you suggest that it does. In my opinion, what damages women's careers is that unlike men, most women simply do not view their jobs as being of a higher priority than their families. Frankly, men are driven to succeed and they freely give of themselves to their work. For example, how often have you seen men working until late in the night in their jobs in comparison to a woman? And the reasons for this are that, in their heart of hearts, women continue to be home bodies and are loathe to give more to their careers than they do to their families. Men, realizing this, are more work-driven because many of them are comfortable knowing that their wives are at home, taking care of their families. Hence, the belief that behind every successful man stands a strong and nurturing woman. I believe that this difference in attitudes towards careers restricts women's career growth, rather than a few months' break due to child birth.

On the flip side, we have all seen women with astronomical career charts... the trade-off is most likely their time with their families. But these females are few and far between. MOST women simply do not opt to make this choice. Personally, I wouldn't.

(4) With reference to the issues of paternity leave being taboo, films being androcentric etc, yes, this could be true. HOWEVER, even this situation is slowly changing and you agree that younger men are more caring and as eager to shoulder as much domestic responsibilities as their wives are, than their fathers were. So, the tide IS changing, which is a good sign. We cannot undo thousands of years of brainwashing in one day. Change comes slowly and it is these slow baby-step changes that are permanent

(5) You said: "Its easy to say that only few in billion, face these situation if it were the case the Gender studies wouldn't have been there in every country, look at the situation of women in African countries, Middle east, even Oxford got its first women librarian in 650 years. does it mean that there were no deserving women or that the authorities thought that women didn't deserve. Saying the percentage is less is like saying the percentage of handicapped people, rapped and battered women is less so doesn't need any attention."

I never said the above. All I said was (as I just did above), that change happens slowly but at least it's happening. I never said that women's issues are negligible simply because only some of us face these issues. Please do not make assumptions without cause.

And to respond to your OP, yes, men and women ARE equal but in different ways. We need two hands to clap and men and women need to work together for the betterment of the species as a whole. However, your argument that women are not treated properly at work could also be looked at in another light - which point you failed to address. How many men, who are house-husbands or SAHDs, are treated well? And how many men have the option and the freedom of working ONLY if they want to while a woman can choose to be either a housewife or a career woman?? The truth is that as a society, we have different expectations from men and women. It will be a few years before we truly have a completely equal level playing field and until that happens, we need to be grateful that change is at least occurring, even if at a deafeningly slow pace.

 

Dear Ansh,

Kudos to you for bringing up this topic. Malyatha too, has offered excellent arguments. Feminism, to me, is the biggest dilemma that women face today. On the one hand, the feminist movement brought women to the forefront in society. On the other hand, it left them to battle the resulting problems on their own.

I do not view the feminist cause as intrinsically negative, because it began with sound objectives - to give women the right to vote, the right to inheritance, and several other privileges that we take for granted today.

However, somewhere along the line, it also turned radical, and that's when it began to strike us where it hurt! The point you made, that modern feminism asserts that women are more equal than men, is an apt illustration! Are women equal to men?

My argument - physically - no. Mentally - not in an absolute manner. Behavioral Scientists have proved that the female brain and the male brain function in different ways. But are they equally capable? Yes. I would like to disagree with the idea women are inherently programmed to nurture children. That was true in the past, when social influences mandated that girls help in rearing smaller children. Today, however, girls are raised just like boys are - they study, participate in extra-curricular activities, excel in college, go on to build careers..and, if they feel like it, help their mothers in the home..

Today's economy is a knowledge-driven economy. Your education teaches you how to think, not just how to do. And women from time immemorial have shown that they are perfectly capable of inquisitive thinking as men are. Let me give you an example here. Today we know that to make dosas, urad dal and rice have to be ground into a paste in certain proportions, and mixed and left to rest in a fairly warm environment, in order to ferment. Has anyone ever wondered, how did the generations of yore deduce this?

Surely, civilizations ago, men did not stay at home and pound rice? It was probably the women who did this, and it must have taken them several trials, exercising the power of observation and rational thinking, to come to the perfect recipe? Of course, back then, they wouldn't have known what chemical processes were taking place in the molecules, but they surely understood that if they altered proportions, they could alter the results? They were chemists without realizing it!

Unfortunately, as you said, somewhere along the line, women became a marginalized section of society - no representation, no rights. The crab-like mentality also played a part, because one woman saw it fit to oppress another. We have come a long way since then - and how did this happen? We have to give credit to the women pioneers of the West, who called for equality long before Indian women even aspired to it.

And now to the backlash - the repercussions of the feminist movement are clearly visible these days - women are as vociferous and aggressive in the home as men are or were. And men are unable to cope. Children are torn between the father and the mother. How are we to reconcile feminism to the family unit?

I do not have any answers, but I do have one idea - all change should begin with one man and one woman. Then society will come around eventually.

Keep the discussion going!

Cheers,
Sowmya

 

Hi Ansh that's a nice post you have started here.

Though I enjoyed the discussion, I would like to focus my attention on a couple of issues that have been constantly raised in this post.

1. Woman discriminated at work: To be treated like a male employee a woman has to behave like a man. This is an unfortunate truth. We woman (married with kids) tend to give more attention to our families than the men do. Typically we are not the primary providers(financially) in our families, so loss of pay or a compromised promotion is a better option than losing family time. When we make such decisions, how can we talk of educating men about empowering woman.
When we get married, we want to marry a guy who earns more than we do and is more educated that we are. Then how can we complain, if the same man wants to focus on his career.
It is naive to think that a man who gives his wife the choice of being employed, will also support his wife with every career choice she makes.

2. Male bashing syndrome: I agree with you completely on this. I have seen that single woman are more prone to male bashing than their married counter parts. In fact I think it is this attitude that prevents them from enjoying life.

I think it is prudent to compare ourselves with men. We have some nice inherent qualities and we should cherish it. For Eg: Last month most senior managers at my work place went out for a drink to celebrate the completion of a project. While some of the woman who worked with me (esp the younger ones) joined the group, I declined. I would rather party with my family than with my colleagues. When I was younger, I used to think that a decision of this kind would hamper my chances of a promotion. However today I feel otherwise.

I think as a woman I am very sensative to the feelings and personal values of my co-workers. It comes naturally to me ask about the well being of their families. And the bonding that I have with my co-workers because of this, does not mandate me to develop a relationship with them over a glass of beer.

Another example: As a person juggling home and career, I am very oragnized. This behavior reflects in the work I do too. I find men who don't have the compulsion of picking up kids or making dinner, tend to not plan their day well. I know I have to leave my work place at 3 PM to pick my kids, so I plan all client meetings at 9. All team meetings before lunch. I can not lag behind in my work and still be permitted to leave office early. So I work very hard to balance. This advantage I have as a working mom. I would rather be this than be a man who has all the free time to advance his career.




So lets cherish womanhood and be happy with what we have. Rather than constantly trying to grab from men what they have.

 

What is the feminist approach in anthropology? How do you react to the concept of women being “invisible” to the anthropologists studying their cultures?

 

Ansh.. a thought provoking thread... but I disagree to your some of your views...Malyatha has discussed it out quite well.. so I ain't going to repeat it all over

Very well said. Being a woman comes with added responsibilities and its OUR CHOICE to make what we need in life.. I don't agree talking feminism then.

hmm.. I don't think so... It's not about whether they are single or in a relationship. It's about whether they are happy or not. People might have lots of reasons to be in a relationship and still badmouth men.