Be guided by what is beyond the Intellect-Bhagavad Gita 3.41-3.43

Discussion in 'Chitvish on Hindu Culture & Vedanta' started by Chitvish, Jan 22, 2009.

  1. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Arjuna typifies the modern generation which has the heroism and heart to fight down its own false urges if equipped with the technique of self-mastery.
    The Lord knows the youthful impatience of a dynamic man and supplies, in the three closing verses, the secret method of winning personal victory over our own inner weaknesses and outer temptations.

    In the following verse, Krishna stresses the necessity of conditioning the senses to become free from the over-shadowing nature of the desires.

    Thasmath-thvamindriyaaNyadau niyamya bharatharshabha

    Papmanam prajahi hyenam jnanavijnana nashanam 3.41

    Therefore, Oh, best of the Bharathas, controlling first the senses, kill this sinful thing, the destroyer of knowledge and wisdom.

    Krishna advises that if expressions of lust are controlled at the sense level, it automatically brings a sane discipline in our mental thoughts and also in our intellectual values in life.
    In a nutshell:
    Krishna shows us how we can lift ourselves by ourselves in ourselves out of our own vicious impulses.
    Organising the sense lies at the root of all real accomplishments in life. The next verse expounds this technique.

    Indriyani paraNyahurindriyebhya: param mana:
    Manasasthu para buddhiryO buddhe: parathasthu sa: 3.42

    They say that the senses are superior (to the body); superior to the senses is the mind; superior to mind is the intellect; one who is even superior to the intellect is He, the Atman.

    Here, the Lord indicates the sequence of the subtler aspects of subjective life which lie beyond the senses. If one has difficulty in dealing with an officer, one should seek out his superior in the rank.
    In the field of inner life, the Lord says, He who is beyond the intellect is the highest authority of all.

    The next and last verse of Chapter 3, makes clear that, by contacting Him, the senses are naturally subdued.
    The sovereign solution of doing away with gross and subtle desire is presented thus:

    Evam buddhe: param buddhva samsathabhyathmanamathmana
    Jahi shatrum maha bahO kamarupam durasadam 3.43

    Thus, knowing Him, who is superior to intellect, and restraining the self by the Self, slay you, Oh mighty armed, the enemy in the form of desire, no doubt, hard to conquer.

    When desire is centred on body, the senses, mind and intellect, the Jiva consciousness or our individualised little self is fostered. This little self is always wrought with misery.
    How do we transcend it? By identifying with that which lies beyond the intellect itself!

    By thus awakening to the greater plane of Consciousness, the desires and passions, natural to the mortal dwellers of our planes of Consciousness are completely conquered and routed. No more can the world of objects tempt such a master-mind.

    Love,
    Chithra.




     
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  2. Cheeniya

    Cheeniya Super Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    By drawing our attention to the hierarchy of the individual components of our Being, namely, the body, senses, Mind, Individual Intellect and the Collective (Cosmic) Intellect, the Lord points out where we should look for guidance when there is a conflict within. As an infant, we have a body but we are unaware of the senses. As we grow older, our senses grow too in their enormity. We find it difficult to liberate ourselves from their mighty clutches. Our Mind develops too simultaneously and assumes control of the senses but in most cases, the Mind remains suppressed by the senses. As we grow further, all our combined experience stored in the Mind gets crystallised into Intellect with our conscious effort. Those who wallow in their sensual demands effectively stall their Mind from reaching the stage of Intellect. Each person’s Intellect is the sum total of his experience that gets processed by his Mind and stored as such. Such Intellect can only be his own individual Intellect until it transcends into the Cosmic Intellect. When this happens, the lower order in the hierarchy starting with the body and senses comes directly under the control of the Cosmic Intellect.

    The Atman refers to this superior, all pervading Cosmic Intellect. The quintessence of these verses can be seen in Adi Shankara’s Viveka Choodamani in which he says “It is the ignorance that causes us to identify ourselves with the body, the ego, the senses or anything that is not the Atman. He is a wise man who overcomes this ignorance by devotion to the Atman” He further cautions us that when a man follows the way of the world, or the way of the flesh, or the way of tradition (that is, when he overemphasises on religious rites and the letter of the scriptures, as though they are intrinsically sacred) knowledge of Reality cannot arise in him.

    When the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent Atman controls and directs all the individual Intellects, does it make any sense for us to overlook our Supreme Controller, the Atman, and owe our allegiance to the lesser conscience of our senses and our ego? About four decades back, there was a famous Tamil movie by name “Thillana Mohanambal” The film centers on the life of a famous musician who plays on Nadaswaram which is a traditional wind instrument. He enslaves millions of people through his divine music. There is also a folk artist in the movie who uses the same instrument as an accompaniment for her folk dances. She once asks the famous artist if he can create the same kind of divine music with her Nadaswaram or he can do so only with his own instrument. He smiles, takes the instrument from her and creates music of such an ethereal quality that leaves the folk artist speechless with ecstasy.

    We are all like that musical instrument. As long as we subject ourselves to the dictates of our own senses, we can be no better than the instrument in the hands of the folk artist but if we submit ourselves to the Supreme Intellect or the Atman, our words and actions will always be reflective of the Divine Will. The words of Eckhart in this context are very significant. Says he, “Up then, noble Soul! Put on thy jumping shoes which are intellect and love, and overleap the worship of thy mental powers, overleap thine understanding and spring into the heart of God, into His hiddenness where thou art hidden from all creatures”
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
  3. ojaantrik

    ojaantrik IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Chitvish and Sri:

    I read you with deep interest, since this is one of my favourite subjects. During my reading of parts of the Upanishads, the question that kept me occupied was the meaning of the expression 'immortality of the soul'. I haven't read Chitvish's original post yet, but I wll do so soon. This is my response to your response to Chitvish.

    Since I am a mathematician cum economist, my thought process hankers for logical resolution of problems. And I wanted to make a logical statement of the concept. This is the way I proceeded. Appreciating the fact that one's part of the seamless whole, viz. the universe including its time dimension, is the only logical path to follow to attain immortality. Since the whole lives forever, parts of the whole live forever too.

    Going out of pure logic to the realm of analogies, I often think of the Supreme Being as a tree. The fact that it sheds its leaves during winter does not mean that it has ceased to exist. A leaf by itself doesn't have any meaningful existence. Its only form of existence lies in its attachment to the tree. It's the tree alone that matters, not the individual leaves. It's important for the leaf to realize that the only purpose it can possibly serve is to adorn the tree. To quote from the above post: 'As long as we subject ourselves to the dictates of our own senses, we can be no better than the instrument in the hands of the folk artist but if we submit ourselves to the Supreme Intellect or the Atman, our words and actions will always be reflective of the Divine Will.'

    I have always felt that this is exactly where Hindu philosophy wins over Western materialism. Following Descartes and others, Western thought emphasizes a clear distinction between 'A' and 'not A'. Hence, each human is unique and distinct from each other. It's only the dialectical branch of Western philosophy, Spinoza and others, who opposed this idea. Can we really distinguish between Mr. A and Mr. B? After all, A breathes the same air that B breathes. So, where does A end and B begin?

    And once you see this, you are naturally led to the further conclusion that you can't really draw a line between Mr. A and 'everything that is not Mr. A'. From here, it is a small step to the Upanishads. We are all part of the whole and the whole being immortal, so are the parts. Even the parts that grow old and transform into new parts. Such as the leaves.

    Of course, much of modern mathematics is based on the sharp distinction and there lies the dilemma. Or so some may say. Ultimately though, one has to realize that even modern mathematics is not as logical as one might believe it to be. At the very basis of mathematics lies an Axiom, the Axiom of Choice. I won't try to expand on this except to say that this axiom is unprovable and the entire edifice of mathematics stands on this ASSUMPTION, or FAITH if you will.

    Strange really. It is this same shaky mathematics and the physics that makes use of it that has made it possible for man to reach the moon or doctors to find treatments to incurable diseases. It is my firm belief though that mankind will not be able to solve all of God's puzzles by means of the frail logical tool it depends upon.

    Ultimately, it is FAITH alone that takes us anywhere. Not logic. And let's remember that even non-believers are depending on a faith. You can't PROVE the existence or non-existence of God. Like the Axiom of Choice.

    Sorry for this long harangue.

    oj
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
  4. ojaantrik

    ojaantrik IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Chitvish:

    Due to an oversight, I read Cheeniya's reply to your post first and wrote a response myself. And then I realized that I should have read you before reading Cheeniya.

    On the positive side though, I can see that I would have written the same response had I read you alone. So, I request you to treat my single response as a response to both of you.

    I will try to keep in touch with your posts on the scriptures.

    Regards.

    oj
     
  5. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear oj-da,
    It is my honour and privilege that you have visited our thread & replied.
    Cheeniya & I write, dealing with the same subject from the social and vedantic angle, respectively. It is our thread & so you are welcome to give a common reply, no problem!
    If time permits, I request you to read my old threads
    Sarira-thrayam - Thre bodies of an individual - Part1
    Sarira-thrayam - Three bodies of an individual - Part2
    We know that the scientific truth is matter can never be destroyed. We don't require sasthras to prove this. But when we talk of the desatreuction of something, we mean that the thing is going back to its original unmanifest form. This is similar to a wave in the ocean, which we say, has gone back to the ocean.
    Similarly water disappears into invisible steam or vapour when it boils.
    Extending this, the scriptures say that when all the gross and subtle bodies get destroyed during pralaya, they go back only to the invisible unmanifest form and are not destroyed. Here all distinctions like subject and object are resolved just as we cannot identify one particular wave.

    I fully agree with you that FAITH is ultimately most important and everything cannot possibly be explained rationally or logically.
    Love,
    Chithra.
     
  6. vidhi

    vidhi Senior IL'ite

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    Dear Chith

    Inner weakness combined with the outer temptations always puts oneself into an awkward situation. And that is the cause of our miseries. So here you have clearly explained about the need to become free from the nature of desires.

    Senses destroys the knowledge and wisdom from us so there comes the necessity to organize them and rise above them so that we are free from it. Inspite of Atman being the superior it is over shadowed by the senses. Only with the help of the divine we could come out from those experiences.

    Love
    Vidhi
     
  7. vidhi

    vidhi Senior IL'ite

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    Dear Cheeniya Sir

    You have reminded me about the film 'Thillana Mohanambal'. The particular example which you cited from that film gave a very good understanding. You explained very clearly about the difference when we come under the pressure of the senses and at the same time the divine experience of surrendering everything to him and accepting the divine will. The words of Ekchart as usual is very powerful in conveying the message.

    With Best regards
    Vidhi
     
  8. Cheeniya

    Cheeniya Super Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Vidhi
    As an extension of this thought, you may have observed that children who have had the good fortune of studying under teachers of high moral values and sound knowledge always shaped well. A country ruled by a benevolent and principled leader prospers. Don't we talk of Ram Raj even today?
    That is why, it makes a lot of sense for us to anchor ourselves to the Divine so that we may keep our ethical balance even if we are surrounded by people of much lesser standard.
    Sri
     
  9. gayathriar

    gayathriar Bronze IL'ite

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    Dear C
    You have progressively explained how the desire can be overcome by making it Atman centric. Sorry for my delay in responding. I had to re-read it to understand it in entirety. Many thanks to your simple explanation.

    Dear Sri
    Your description of Atman as a collective cosmic intellect makes the concept more concrete and less abstract. You have also taught how we can make our actions reflective of the Divine Will. Can you please explain how we can subject ourselves to the Supreme intellect in simple everyday affairs. Thanks in advance,

    -Gayathri
     
  10. Jpatma

    Jpatma Silver IL'ite

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    Dear Chithra ji and Cheeniya sir,
    Going in line , let me elaborate as per my understanding.

    Lord Krishna says Desire is the greatest enemy as it obscure’s the self within but also affects the passage thro’ life. Desire also veils knowledge. It is insatiable. Desire enters thro senses (body indriyaas) ,turns into obsession developing from this, it clouds our wisdom and lead you to delusion. Emotions (mind) overpower one, veils our thinking Intellect- uncontrollable yearning also leads to loss of reason and consequent delusion. Hence we must guard these areas where desire can germinate and grow.
    Control the senses first before emotions and thoughts. Physical senses are gross compared to emotions of the mind and thoughts of the intellect. Uncontrolled senses agitate the mind, when mind is agitated, intellect ceases to function. Loss of intellect place one in vulnerable position.
    The best example is Macbeth who in his desire to become king, he kills Duncan,loses his peace of mind and also his intellect ( Macbeth is a man of letters and intelligence) & becomes a total wreck.
    The senses are powerful, mind is more powerful, and intellect is more powerful than mind and most powerful is the supreme self – Atman
    Senses lures only when you identify with physical body. If we shift our attention to mind we get emotional satisfaction which superior to physical pleasures. So sense no longer victimize you, here the mind controls the body and senses Again if you shift to intellect, you become intellectual. Living at this level all emotions and senses lose power over you. You grow beyond them to subtler joys. Finally attunement to the Self within an entire range of desires pertaining to the body mind &intellect disappears. You reach the supreme state of human perfection.
    To overcome the dreaded enemy, desire, there are 2 suggestions
    1) realizing the self within (Atman)
    2) retraining the self by the self

    For the first discipline you acquire is knowledge. It removes the ignorance (avarana) In the second you practice self control which reduces mental agitations. You will have to blend both carefully. Without self control attempts to acquire knowledge will not sustain. You will ultimately draw to senses. On the other hand, if you try to force self restrain without acquiring knowledge, it will suppressed, repressed individual .As you gain little knowledge ,support it with a small measure of restrain.. Like wise restrain shd be backed by knowledge. The restrain or control and knowledge act as 2 pedestals to the wheels of progress in life. Together they enable you to conquer desire and reach ultimate goal of self realization- conquer the enemy desire. In the diagram we see we can slowly progress from senses (body) to Atman & viewing from Atman all enemies (desires) are vanquished.
    [​IMG]
    Iam sorry abt the long post i got carried away.
    May God bless you.
    Jaya
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2009

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