A Fate Worse than Death - Bhagavad Gita Verses 2.33 & 2.34

Krishna has clearly explained to Arjuna that, the war is in keeping with his duty – svadharma. He also says that Arjuna is a lucky one for this kind of battle Is not gained by ordinary people, but only by the very lucky ones.
Arjuna could not have got a better chance to protect the dharma and prove himself a true kshathriya. When a kshathriya has a chance of battle, he feels happy, because he gains whether he wins or loses. Victorious, he achieves glory on earth; dying in battle, he gains heaven.

Then Krishna continues – what will happen if Arjuna does not participate in the battle?

Atha chaeththvamimam dharmyam sangraamam na karishyasi
Thatha: svadharma keerthim cha, hithvaa paapamavaapsyasi 2. 33

On the other hand, if you do not fight this righteous war, then, you will be forsaking your own duty as well as your fame and will incur sin.

Krishna says, it is unethical on Arjuna's part if he does not fight the war. It amounts to shirking his duty. Also the name and fame that Arjuna has so far gained would be destroyed.
Arjuna had earlier said that he would incur sin by fighting this battle. "Sin" is that through which a man strays from the path of evolution. It results in suffering!
Krishna argues that running away from his duty of fighting would incur sin. He impresses upon Arjuna the danger of not fighting the battle.
Not fighting the war, Arjuna may run away from the field, but he will certainly come to regret his lost chances since his mind is so composed that he can find complete relief and solace only by living the intensely dangerous life of the battlefield.
Sin in Hinduism is considered a mistake of the mind in which it acts contrary to its essential nature as the Self. This only creates more and more agitations in the mind. These agitations of the mind are otherwise called sins.
Dharma and fame are placed together in this verse.


Next Krishna talks to him from the worldly angle.

Akeerthim chaapi bhoothani kathaishyanthi thae(a)vyayaam
Sambhaavithasya chaakeerthi: maraNaadathirichyathae 2 .34


Moreover, people will attribute permanent infamy to you. For a person who has been honoured, infamy is worse than death.

The argument here is, if Arjuna cared about dharma, he should not leave the battlefield and if he did leave, he would incur papa because of failure in duty. The ill-fame is worse than death because no one can live with ill-fame which is not at all legitimate. Ill-fame is not the same as loss of fame; it is the opposite of fame and worse than death for one, held in high esteem by society. He will become a center of something unrighteous and this will impair his personal evolution.
Certainly, there is an undercurrent of sympathy in Krishna's words; he realises that however great a hero Arjuna may be, even he can be weakened by wrong emotionalism!

Love,
Chithra.

Dear Chithra
The title does sound a little scary but the first line calms me a little. I cannot believe that someone needs to be even lucky to have this kind of battle..But because it is to PROTECT DHARMA. I have always felt that one does not have to be born a kshathriya in order to protect dharma or uphold righteousness. It is everyones duty in life to do that- but I am deviating here.
A very interesting question - is what happens if Arjuna choses not to battle?
He forsakes duty and thereby incurs SIN.
More than the fame aspect it is more important to uphold his duty as or as we saw earlier his svadharma.
It makes things more clear because of Krishna's repetition of what wold incur sin and running away from ones duty would certainly incur sin. Again I feel this should reflect in everyones life in our day to day matters.
The definition of Sin is so different in so many religions and I am glad you mention it here in this context.
It is surprising to see how much is going on in the battlefield right at the moment of war. It symbolises so clearly his agitations and confrontations in his mind (of Arjuna's) and the voice of consciousness that of the Lord.
Thank you for writing this for us.

dear chithra
My First question so far:
your lines
Sin in Hinduism is considered a mistake of the mind in which it acts contrary to its essential nature as the Self. This only creates more and more agitations in the mind. These agitations of the mind are otherwise called sins.
Dharma and fame are placed together in this verse.


The mistake of the mind in which it acts contrary to its essential nature - does this also mean contrary to ones svadharma. When one acts contrary to ones duty in life?

Thank you.

Sin in Hinduism is considered a mistake of the mind in which it acts contrary to its essential nature as the Self. This only creates more and more agitations in the mind. These agitations of the mind are otherwise called sins.
Dharma and fame are placed together in this verse.

Dear Mrs.Chith,
I think ,contrarty to its essential nature as the Self, means doing ones duty as it is assigned to him/her.
The thoughts which stop one from doing that duty is called sin.
Did I undertand it correctly?

sriniketan

Dear Ac,
You are my "boNi" as usual, thanks !
Here, Krishna told Arjuna that if he did not undertake this battle, which was in keeping with his dharma, he would be destroying his own dharma, his duty. Also, the name & fame that Arjuna had so far gained would be destroyed. So, he would incur sin(papam avapsyasi)
Arjuna had said earlier that he would incur sin by fighting ths battle, but Krishna was telling him that by not fighting he would incur sin in the sense that he would be guilty of negligence of duty. Not fighting itself would not incur sin, but running away from his duty was an action, a karma, that would incur sin. Hence Krishna said
"You will incur sin, Arjuna and you will lose your name also."
Yes, the definition of sin differs in each religion; not only that, it depends on the context also.
AC, I am going through this chapter in very great detail, because this is one of the most important chapters in Gita.
Love,
Chithra.

Originally Posted by anandchitra

Dear Chithra
The title does sound a little scary but the first line calms me a little. I cannot believe that someone needs to be even lucky to have this kind of battle..But because it is to PROTECT DHARMA. I have always felt that one does not have to be born a kshathriya in order to protect dharma or uphold righteousness. It is everyones duty in life to do that- but I am deviating here.
A very interesting question - is what happens if Arjuna choses not to battle?
He forsakes duty and thereby incurs SIN.
More than the fame aspect it is more important to uphold his duty as or as we saw earlier his svadharma.
It makes things more clear because of Krishna's repetition of what wold incur sin and running away from ones duty would certainly incur sin. Again I feel this should reflect in everyones life in our day to day matters.
The definition of Sin is so different in so many religions and I am glad you mention it here in this context.
It is surprising to see how much is going on in the battlefield right at the moment of war. It symbolises so clearly his agitations and confrontations in his mind (of Arjuna's) and the voice of consciousness that of the Lord.
Thank you for writing this for us.

Dear AC,
My answer has to be necessarily & unavoidably long, please bear with me !
Every living creature has taken up its form and has come into this world for one purpose - exhaustion of vasanas or existing mental impressions. The bundle of vasanas with which an individual has arrived in this life in his present incarnation is his svadharma. Not to make use of the evolutionary chances provided by life is to reject and refuse the chances for a vasana-catharsis. By not exhausting the old vasanas, one will tend to live under heavy pressure of vasanas and the existing tendencies are crowded by the influx of the new tendencies! With over anxiety, we tend to ignore vasanas and entertain more and more agitations in our minds. these agitations of the mind are called sins (papam).
My teacher always quotes a typical example. With over enthusiasm in the spiritual field, many, at the mere appearance of a sorrow or threat of a failure, decide to run away to take shelter in caves & become "samiyars" ! They forget that they have in them sensuous vasanas which can be satisfied only in a family life. By rejecting them, they only entertain more and more agitations in their mind, which are otherwise called sins.
I hope you understand better, now.
Love,
Chithra.

Originally Posted by anandchitra

dear chithra
My First question so far:
your lines
Sin in Hinduism is considered a mistake of the mind in which it acts contrary to its essential nature as the Self. This only creates more and more agitations in the mind. These agitations of the mind are otherwise called sins.
Dharma and fame are placed together in this verse.


The mistake of the mind in which it acts contrary to its essential nature - does this also mean contrary to ones svadharma. When one acts contrary to ones duty in life?

Thank you.

Dear Bhargavi
You are more or less correct.
Any act of sensuousness in which the mind pants forward into the world of objects, hoping to get thereby a joy and satisfaction (but acting contrary to its essential nature as the Self), necessarily creates in the heart more and more agitaions. This type of mistake is called a sin.
Love,
Chithra.

Originally Posted by Sriniketan

Sin in Hinduism is considered a mistake of the mind in which it acts contrary to its essential nature as the Self. This only creates more and more agitations in the mind. These agitations of the mind are otherwise called sins.
Dharma and fame are placed together in this verse.

Dear Mrs.Chith,
I think ,contrarty to its essential nature as the Self, means doing ones duty as it is assigned to him/her.
The thoughts which stop one from doing that duty is called sin.
Did I undertand it correctly?

sriniketan

Dear Chith

Great going. The different angle in which krishna advises Arjuna is amazing. I liked the line ' Sadness does not depend on what you have or do not have. It is a particular way of thinking.' But most often when we are in stress we think the opposite way. May be that is the time we are weakened by wrong emotionalism.

Love
Vidhi

Dear Vidhi,
You are right. Emotions always overtake our reasoning. That is why we act contrary to our nature very often because we do not pause to think !
Just like happiness, sadness is also a state of mind.
Thanks, Vidhi.
Love,
Chitra.

Dear Chithra,

The title does sound daunting......but great post on sin and running away from one's duties and its repercussions.
I liked these lines......

"The argument here is, if Arjuna cared about dharma, he should not leave the battlefield and if he did leave, he would incur papa because of failure in duty. The ill-fame is worse than death because no one can live with ill-fame which is not at all legitimate. Ill-fame is not the same as loss of fame; it is the opposite of fame and worse than death for one, held in high esteem by society."

Of course all these should guide us on the way we should lead a life without incurring more sins....right!? Will get back once i mull over this......i like to read the fbs and ur replies too!