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Wounded Civilizations

Discussion in 'Snippets of Life (Non-Fiction)' started by HariLakhera, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. HariLakhera

    HariLakhera Platinum IL'ite

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    Wounded Civilizations
    I live now in the United States for the last two years. Prior to that, I used to visit and return. The question has always haunted me: Why Indians are still in awe of the white race? Is it because we still have the wounds of the ‘wounded civilization’?

    'Wounded Civilizations’ as a term was used by VS Naipaul in his book India: Wounded Civilization.

    When the British came to India, Imperial Modernity, a product of Western military power enabled by economic growth and technological progress created a deep sense of emotional insignificance and backwardness of the 19th century in India and China. While China has largely overcome it, it is still alive in India with hurt feelings in spite of recent economic growth.

    While we should have been proud of our traditions and culture, we could not stand the constant onslaught by the westerners. They made us feel stupid, made fun of our traditions and looked down upon us as primitive. If that was not enough, they became our rulers. They had weapons power and material success in their favor.

    Our caste system divided us. Our then rulers, mostly dynastic, Hindus or Muslims, divided on the basis of religion or cast gave the fodder. Indians were not materialistic as a way of life.

    But that is past, 70 years behind us but the master-servant relationship is yet to break. The moment we meet a white guy we squeeze in our seats. While the change is visible in the workplace particularly after the grand stride Indians have taken in the IT field, the fact remains that we are yet to assert our equality if not superiority in many fields. Indians are here because they earn more than what they could in their country but the fact remains that they are also here because they are prepared to work at lesser remuneration as compared to the locals, particularly whites. But that is beside the point.

    The main point is that we have not been in a position to reconcile to the truth that whites are no more our rulers. We are still in awe, an unpleasant gift of the wounded civilization.
     
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  2. Amulet

    Amulet IL Hall of Fame

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    That haunting question comes right out of one of the blind men feeling an elephant that is the United States, my home.

    Have you not heard that "poor, non-college educated whites" is a huge electoral demographic that got us our president Trump ?

    Naipaul went to India and experienced the full treatment, because he asked for it by slumming. In Trinidad he was a Hindu Brahmin, and lived the high life among the locals who were not as exalted as he was. And when he moved to the Blighty, he was slighted where the local riff-raff couldn't care for what he knows, the phrases he could coin, but looked at his skin/face and rejected him.

    In America it is more expensive to be dark, bearded, and non-white. This doesn't come out of any awe that the coloured people have for the whites. We strive and fight against all manners of behaviors that are against the law.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
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  3. Amulet

    Amulet IL Hall of Fame

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    This is a wild assertion !:rolleyes:
    By the most recent US census, we are still
    upload_2019-6-2_20-41-38.png
    Household Income by ancestry[From the US Census]
    source: "Median houseland income in the past 12 months (in 2014 inflation-adjusted dollars)".

    1. Indian American (2016) : $122,026 [2]
    2. Taiwanese American (2016) : $90,221 [3]
    3. Filipino American (2016) : $88,745 [2]
    4. British American (2016) : $79,872[3]
    5. Austrian American (2016) : $78,127[3]
    6. Russian American (2016): $77,841[3]
    7. Latvian American (2016): $77,636[3]
    8. Bulgarian American (2016): $76,861[3]
    9. Lithuanian American (2016) : $76,694[3]
    10. Israeli American (2016) : $76,584 [3]
    11. Slovene American (2016) : $75,940[3]
    12. Lebanese American (2016): $75,337[3]
    13. Croatian American (2016): $73,991[3]
    14. Sri Lankan American: $73,856[3]
    15. Scandinavian American (2016): $73,797[3]
    16. Chinese American (2016): $73,788[2]
      (including Taiwanese American)
    17. Belgian American (2016) : $73,443[3]
    18. Chinese American (2016): $72,827[2]
      (excluding Taiwanese American)
    19. Swiss American (2016) : $72,823[3]
    20. Iranian American (2016) : $72,733[3]
    21. Italian American (2016) : $72,586[3]
    22. Ukrainian American (2016): $72,449 [3]
    23. Romanian American (2016): $72,381[3]
    24. Greek American (2016): $72,291[3]
    25. Scottish American (2016): $71,925[3]
    26. Danish American (2016) : $71,550[3]
    27. Swedish American (2016): $71,217 [3]
    28. Polish American (2016): $71,172[3]
    29. Slavic American (2016) : $71,163[3]
    30. Norwegian American (2016): $71,142[3]
    31. Canadian American (2016) : $70,809[3]
    32. Welsh American (2016): $70,351[3]
    33. Japanese American : $70,261[4]
    34. Czech American (2016) : $70,454[3]
    35. Czechslovakian American (2016) : $70,084[3]
    36. Finnish American (2016) : $70,045[3]
    37. Serbian American (2016) : $70,028[3]
    38. Hungarian American (2016): $69,515[3]
    39. French Canadian American (2016) : $68,075[3]
    40. Portuguese American (2016): $67,807[3]
    41. Vietnamese American : $67,800[5]
      (excluding Foreign Born)
    42. English American (2016) : $67,663[3]
    43. Slovak American (2016) : $67,471[3]
    44. Armenian American (2016): $67,450[3]
    45. German American (2016): $67,306[3]
    46. Korean American : $66,737[2]
    47. Irish American (2016) : $66,688[3]
    48. Ghanaian American (2016): $66,571[3]
    49. Turkish American (2016) : $66,566[3]
    50. Palestinian American (2016): $65,170[3]
    51. Egyptian American (2016) : $64,728[3]
    52. Vietnamese American : $64,191[6]
    53. Scotch-Irish American (2016) : $64,187[3]
    54. Yugoslavian American (2016) : $63,765[3]
    55. Dutch American (2016) : $63,597[3]
    56. French American (2016) : $63,471[3]
    57. Syrian American (2016): $63,096[3]
    58. Pakistani American : $62,848[4][7]
    59. Albanian American (2016) : $62,624[3]
    60. Indonesian American : $61,943[4]
    61. Guyanese American (2016) : $60,968[3]
    62. Nigerian American (2016): $60,732[3]
    63. British West Indian American (2016): $60,407[3]
    64. Vietnamese American : $58,700[8]
      (Foreign Born)
    65. Cuban American : $57,000[9]
    66. West Indian American : $56,998[3]
    67. Arab American (2016): $56,597[3]
    68. Brazilian American (2016): $56,151[3]
    69. Barbadian American : $56,078[3]
    70. Argentine American: $55,000[10]
    71. Laotian American : $53,655[4]
    72. Thai American : $53,468[4]
    73. Cambodian American : $53,359[4]
    74. Cajun American : $52,886[3]
    75. Jamaican American (2016): $52,669[3]
    76. Trinidadian and Tobagonian American : $55,303[3]
    77. Moroccan American (2016) : $52,436[3]
    78. Peruvian Americans : $52,000[3]
    79. American (2016): $51,601[3]
    80. Jordanian American (2016): $51,552[3]
    81. Pennsylvania German American (2016): $48,955[3]
    82. Ecuadorian American : $49,000[3]
    83. Hmong American : $48,149[4]
    84. Colombian American : $48,000[10]
    85. Haitian American (2016): $47,990[3]
    86. Cape Verdean American (2016) : $47,281[3]
    87. Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac American (2016): $44,733[3]
    88. Nepali American : $44,677[4]
    89. Bangladeshi American : $44,512[4]
    90. Afghan American : $43,838[3]
    91. Bahamian American : $42,000[3]
    92. Ethiopian American (2016) : $41,357[3]
    93. Puerto Rican American : $40,000[10]
    94. Mexican American : $38,000[10]
    95. Burmese American : $35,016[4]
    96. Iraqi American (2016) : $32,818[3]
    97. Dominican American : $32,300[10]
    98. Somali American (2016): $24,185[3]
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
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  4. Viswamitra

    Viswamitra Finest Post Winner

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    Dear Hari Sir,

    I agree 100% with @Amulet. On the contrary, I see the white men and women longing to know more about India and its culture and consistently asking how to plan a trip, places to visit in the holy land. They simulate their visit by mixing with the Indian population in the Temples, social gathering, spiritual meetings, etc.

    Be it immigration, tariff fight with the rest of the world, comments such as criminals and rapists, taking away the jobs of average Americans, etc. was never made against any Indian American in the US as they don't cross border illegally, American dependency on India on software maintenance and management, no criminal enterprises are run by any Indian, most Indians' average income being higher than average American income, and Indians work in areas that are not directly in competition with qualified Americans. Wherever, Americans are available in a highly-qualified job that directly competes with Indian jobs, they need more such resources resulting in no rivalry. There are CEOs, Scientists, Engineers, Doctors, some holding high position in the federal government and some are members of the house of representatives in the states as well as federal government.

    I don't think Indians living in the US feel inferior to anyone else including Caucasians. There are umpteen number of examples of extraordinary performers in the US that include Preet Bharara, Sundar Pichai, Satya Nadella, Ro Khanna, Raja Krishnamurti, Kamala Harris and many more. There are many Indian Americans in the federal courts as judges and I won't be surprised if one of them were nominated to the Supreme Court in future. The next generation of Indian Americans born in the US are doing well in many fields in every industry.

    Note: Despite party affiliation, every administration has always appreciated Indian population in the US as great contributors to the country and economy as a whole. Frankly, it is the Indian American irrefutable influence in the US resulted in strategic partnership between the US and Indian government.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  5. Amulet

    Amulet IL Hall of Fame

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    @HariLakhera
    you would want to read up on V.S.Naipaul and wonder why he was so pissed off all the time. At pretty much everyone. He has a knack to describe what he sees in objective minutiae, and put it in fine English. In the midst of the #MeToo goings on in the world, I stand somewhat to the side of separating the art from the low-life that created that.

    Here is a starting point:
    Sir Vidia Naipaul admits his cruelty may have killed wife
    Here is an excerpt from the link above:
    He is regarded as one of the most sublime novelists of the age and has won both the Booker and the Nobel Prize for Literature.

    But in private, Sir Vidia Naipaul, 75, better known as VS Naipaul, tormented his first wife for four decades, visited prostitutes and kept a mistress for 24 years before he suddenly abandoned her to marry yet another woman.
    Sir Vidia's shocking treatment of those closest to him is laid bare in a new biography that suggests he is emotionally immature, selfish and self-pitying*. It also contains the author's own admission that his mental cruelty towards his wife may have killed her.

    The disclosures, in the biography by Patrick French and serialised in The Daily Telegraph from tomorrow, are likely to do further harm to a novelist who already has a reputation for arrogance and rudeness that has lost him many friends in the literary world.
    *Highlight is Amulet's. This self-pitying aspect may have been the source of that "wounded civilization" phrase that he had put out.... imagining that all of the colonized people of the world go on to suffer a malaise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  6. Laks09

    Laks09 Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    They added Sundar Pichai’s and Satya Nadella’s income to that list. That was enough to make it jump to the top!
     
  7. Amulet

    Amulet IL Hall of Fame

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    After the 1965 Immigration Reform Act, the larger migration of Indians to America happened. The Sikhs of California had been suffering gross human rights injustices (as did the Chinese) prior to that.

    Indian-Americans were not on top in household income in the 1970 US Census. However, each decennial census after that, we had been at/close-to the top. This is way before Atari, Apple, and MS-DOS happened. Our people came to graduate schools, went on to occupy university faculty jobs, bought suburban homes, and launched their children into upper middle class lives. The immigration reform act of 1965, coincided with the Civil Rights Legislation passed during the Lyndon Johnson years. And this double boon helped the desi diaspora in America.

    America did not take "the wretched refuse" from India. And that resulted in the skewed "successful migrant" stereotype of the Indian-American. The second generation, as well as those who migrated via family-reunification schemes, are not likely to be as clever/driven as the strivers of the first generation, and they might regress the household-income-rank downward to a normal level.

    Emma Lazarus Quote from the base of The Statue of Liberty in NYC:
    “Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”
    ― Emma Lazarus​
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
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  8. HariLakhera

    HariLakhera Platinum IL'ite

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    (It may be true about educated and well-qualified people but let us not forget that only the low paid jobs or jobs at low pays are available to the immigrants. Indian IT companies are being forced to hire locals at a higher salary. Visas are becoming difficult. Not all 'Dark, bearded and nonwhites' are in a position to look straight in the eyes of the whites.)

    Having said that, things are changing for the educated and qualified. It will take time to be equal. If that is the situation of the educated and the qualified you can easily guess the situation of lesser people.
     
  9. HariLakhera

    HariLakhera Platinum IL'ite

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    OMG! Amulet, you seem to have done good research on the subject! Statistics can be misguiding depending upon the manner and scope of it. It will be interesting to have the corresponding population against each.
     
  10. HariLakhera

    HariLakhera Platinum IL'ite

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    Amulet,
    I have already said I have no knowledge of the private life of Naipaul nor it has any bearing on the subject. I am sure those who accorded him the literary awards were not as much concerned about his private life.
     

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